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Post by NKL AeroTom on Dec 17, 2019 6:29:34 GMT
Hi Madman / Stephen, glad this has piqued your interest, and good to see you on these forums. Sorry about the late reply, I thought I had replied via my phone but I guess it didn't work At least now I can answer all your questions Each base represents a squad - of between 5 and 12 men, these could be supplemented with heavy weapon teams. I tend to have less miniatures on the base than would be there in real life at these scales. Attack rolls are done squad to squad - some squads might be suppressed while others are moving, and other attacking. This allows the Platoon to be a self-contained maneuver unit, and to be able to take advantage of covering fire, or to send probing squads, or leave behind rear security, etc. While attacks are done squad to squad, casualties are tracked as a platoon. Squads that take fire in a turn can be destroyed or reduced in firepower if the platoon takes enough casualties, with squads being easier to wipe out as the casualties mount up (see the Task Difficulty image above). Hope that helps!
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Dec 17, 2019 6:37:31 GMT
Latest progress - I've been typing up the vehicle rules, and getting ideas for mishaps for helicopters (as I read through "Undaunted Valor: An Assault Helicopter Unit in Vietnam"). Built 2 Loach helicopters today, and will paint them up over the next few days.
Finished off 10 or so more bases of US infantry, including some recon teams.
To do miniatures-wise: Build 2 Chinooks, and base/paint some VC heavy AA guns (~23mm)
I'm now officially on holiday until late January (last 2 weeks have been busy, as I'm sure everyone is), so will have lots of time to type up rules and start doing some more serious playtesting over the next month.
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madman
Baptized by Fire
Posts: 8
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Post by madman on Dec 17, 2019 12:08:15 GMT
While attacks are done squad to squad, casualties are tracked as a platoon. Squads that take fire in a turn can be destroyed or reduced in firepower if the platoon takes enough casualties, with squads being easier to wipe out as the casualties mount up (see the Task Difficulty image above). Hope that helps! So the combat results are for the entire squad or still individuals within the squad?
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Dec 17, 2019 12:19:24 GMT
So the combat results are for the entire squad or still individuals within the squad? Casualties are tracked as individuals in the platoon, for victory points, but the smallest unit is the squad, which will lose effectiveness (by losing its heavy weapons and/or becoming suppressed or disordered) and eventually be destroyed. Each platoon had a roster card where total casualties are tracked, and after a certain number of platoon casualties squads that took fire will need to take a test to be destroyed (or lose their heavy weapon teams).
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madman
Baptized by Fire
Posts: 8
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Post by madman on Dec 17, 2019 12:53:57 GMT
So the combat results are for the entire squad or still individuals within the squad? Casualties are tracked as individuals in the platoon, for victory points, but the smallest unit is the squad, which will lose effectiveness (by losing its heavy weapons and/or becoming suppressed or disordered) and eventually be destroyed. Each platoon had a roster card where total casualties are tracked, and after a certain number of platoon casualties squads that took fire will need to take a test to be destroyed (or lose their heavy weapon teams). Casualties can be tracked by rings cut from straws on the figures if you were using bases with one figure per trooper. Use different colour straws for KIA, heavy or light wounds. When I was looking at playing Conflict of Heroes using 6mm bases per squad for spent I was going to place a coloured stick (probably a painted match stick) on the base. Similar could be used for other info (ammo status?) and for in coms have a radio equipped figure with a magnet attached to the base while in coms. I like having stuff on the base which is not too offensive visually. Makes book keeping on the stand (platoon of stands) easier. I know my opponents were against lots of markers in H&S but I feel if many can be made as inoffensive as possible so much the better. BTW I am looking at steel bases and for attached figures small washers with very small (1/16" dia x 1/32" thick) magnets to allow them to be attached to the bases.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Dec 19, 2019 7:27:11 GMT
Some interesting ideas there madman, I'm sure people can go all markers if they want to, but the Platoon roster and an amount of off-table tracking is going to be an integral part of the game for us - attempting to cut down on the number of markers being used (some things like stance would require a unit to have a marker with them at all times). Big and Small: Finished Loaches and CH-47 Chinooks, as well as the 2 finished Recon Squads
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Dec 27, 2019 2:12:31 GMT
Finished listening to "Silent Heroes: A Recon Marine's Vietnam War Experience" (would recommend, although the narrator isn't quite as good as some of the other audiobooks), and downloaded "Taking Fire: The True Story of a Decorated Chopper Pilot" for listening to while I paint & build miniatures. Started painting the CH-47s and Loaches today. Rules-wise over the past few days I've been looking at the helicopter rules, typing up a few things like damage tables, and today I'm hoping to attempt an air insertion of troops into a hot LZ to see how the heli rules hold up. Should be interesting... The Helicopter rules currently look this this, although I'm still filling a few things in, and they're likely far from finished: www.dropbox.com/s/tc83eg1ipfbs743/Heli%20Rules.pdf?dl=0
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Dec 27, 2019 12:10:34 GMT
Some photos from today's playtest - did a single US platoon dropping into an LZ, with the VC at the treeline. Fleshed out a lot of rules, things like disembarking / embarking, touch-and-go landings, detection, etc. Its always surprising just how many things you discover and alter during the first few playtests of rules. Slicks inbound to the LZ, haven't yet detected the VC in the treeline, while the VC certainly know they're coming - they're just waiting for the right time to strike The Slicks touch and go, detecting VC in the treeline and opening fire with the left-hand M60s, suppressing the VC. The US troops dismount, considered to be disordered while first dismounting The VC open fire on the disordered US troops, as they hit the ground. The slicks lift off, heading out. (These tracer markers are subject to change...) The US open fire on the VC while the VC decide to aim at the slicks, attempting to get some lucky damage with their small arms fire, which forces a slick to RTB ("Its Too Hot!"), and kills the Door gunner in another, also causing that slick to RTB. That's about as far as I took the playtest, as it was mostly a proof of concept on the helicopter rules and how insertions worked. Typed up a lot of things and clarified a few others, so the Helicopter section is looking a lot more healthy now. I decided I will have a helicopter roster sheet where damage can be tracked (and troops aboard placed), to prevent too many markers on the table.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Jan 3, 2020 9:01:53 GMT
Finished of the Chinooks and Loaches, ready for the table: Over the next few days I'll be testing out AA fire and helicopters dealing with AA and ground threats - so detection and engaging, and see what the balance is like. I'll be trying out small arms, RPGs, larger caliber and Radar-Guided AA fire, and working out how I'm going to handle the 12.7mm / .50 cal, 23mm and 37mm AA weaponry of the VC / NVA
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Jan 24, 2020 1:20:24 GMT
Back from holiday, so can now get back to work on this. Aiming for a full playtest sunday after next (our next Wargame Club day), so will need to have the rules cleaned up and functional by then. The Helicopter damage section is complete, as you can see below I tried to have minimal tracking, but a helicopter roster sheet will probably still be used, or some markers. I will also give helicopters the ability to call in and adjust artillery, as they did in real life. Today I typed up the FOG & IFR section, which will make it harder to call in helicopters unless its an emergency (such as Recon needing extraction or Priority Medevacs in a regular platoon), and there is a chance that any helicopters flying (such as airborne insertions) could run into trouble and get lost or even crash. Over the next week I will need to do a few things to make sure the rule set it ready for playtesting: - Choose which elements of the game will be running for the playtest - will civilians be included, hidden movement?
- Tidy up and proof-read the sections that will be running
- Get Helicopter roster sheets and any extra markers needed, such as the Mortar Zeroed in Markers
Choosing what to include in the first large scale playtest is going to be the hardest part - the hidden movement really needs to be included, so I'll need to carefully look at that section and probably re-type a lot of it scratch to get more clarity and ease of play. Things like Civilians and hidden movement will both add a lot to the feel of the game, so if I'm feeling confident that they won't overwhelm the VC player (who tends to wait in ambush for the first few turns of the game), then I will have them running in this playtest. All the support options will certainly be available to the US player, so I will need to finish off the artillery section (rules for smoke and Time Over Target strikes). I also have some VC AA guns to paint, which I should easily be able to get done by next sunday Army lists will also need to be finished off, with any elements not being tested removed. I will also need to print the whole ruleset (in B&W, although with a color cover to show off). So definitely a lot to do!
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Jan 31, 2020 1:59:37 GMT
Gearing up for a full scale playtest today, and another on sunday, so have been frantically typing up missing rules and making markers. One of the hardest thing about games that feature a lot of hidden movement is that you can't really playtest them on your own, so almost every aspect of the game needs to be ready and (hopefully) functional by the time the first playtests roll around. I found the same thing in Hind & Seek, where I essentially had to write the whole ruleset and then start playtesting, as opposed to most of the other games I design where I can solo test each new concept as it comes around, tweaking balance and rules clarity as I go. I plan to do a US search and destroy of 2 Villages, allowing the VC to deploy hidden, but not being sure where the US will come from. This will make for some interesting cat and mouse, as the VC won't know which village the US will go for first, and the US won't know where the VC will be waiting. Civilians and booby traps will probably be implemented, as they both make things interesting and add to the "Vietnam" atmosphere. So we'll see how it goes today, I'm sure I will learn a lot and have a lot of edits and things to clarity! Here's the latest marker sheet: Rules typed up in the last week or so: Vehicles, Terrain Points re-typed and Cleaned up (hidden movement and detection rules), Army lists cleaned up and filled out, Trench and Bunker rules written, Night Fighting rules written, Typed up the Reinforcements, Extraction and Supply drop requests for the US, as well as a lot of cleaning up and refining of all the other rules here and there. It has been crunch time for these rules!
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Feb 2, 2020 4:39:10 GMT
Ok both playtests are done - the first was a bit rocky, being the very first full scale playtest with hidden movement, but we managed to have an interesting engagement. The second playtest was very successful, with a lot of crazy shit going down, and lots of fun (and friction!). Both games I took over a page of notes, and was able to type up the changes from playtest 1 before moving on to the next one (them having a day between them). I'm feeling pretty confident with the rules now - that they will be fun and engaging, and everything else is just playtesting, polishing, testing balance, and clarifying rules. It will still be a long process ahead, but at least the initial large scale playtest period has been successful - the proof of concept that its a fun game. A few photos from the playtests: 1st playtest: 3 US platoons sweep through rural Vietnam, about to search 2 villages for stashes or VC activity a Heavily armed VC platoon emerges in the treeline... Springing a massive ambush, which initially did lots of casualties, but the US were able to immediately get accurate mortar fire onto the VC platoon, pinning it down while the other platoons nearby came up to assist. Second Playtest: An airmobile US platoon en route to an LZ near a village to be searched, the hueys hover in to insert... ...and the lead Huey is hit by an RPG from a nearby section of jungle! the US player (me) had their platoon HQ in there! that's not good. The huey loses control and crashes nearby, although the pilots try their best to control the landing, there are no survivors... Lesson learned: don't put the HQ in the lead helicopter! now the Platoon won't be able to call in support... The remaining 3 Hueys insert their squads, although the 2nd huey lands over a piece of jungle, and the aircraft catches a stray tree branch, sending it hurtling forward - it collides with the front huey and both go down in fiery balls! thats 3 / 4 helis down! Another lesson learned - always insert into open areas! - don't try to land near jungle! The cut off US platoon is strongly equipped with M60s and M79s, so can hold its own, they're taking fire from a nearby the Sniper Valley Terrain Point... and they attempt to pin it down with help from the remaining huey: A medium-sized VC platoon reveals from Sniper Valley, and a massive firefight ensues... 3rd US squad crawls frantically around the left side in order to flank the VC position.... The US, while taking a bunch of casualties on the way in, start to turn the tide on the VC platoon, even without any artillery or air support, although another VC platoon is in the nearby village, and starting closing in... A Radar-guided 37mm opens fire on the remaining Huey, luckily only hitting the fuel tank and forcing the Huey to RTB... The US platoon charge at the VC, running forwards with M16s blazing, and throwing grenades - causing massive casualties on the wavering VC platoon - who is attempting to break contact and retreat back to the village - although they also want to withdraw with their casualties, giving the US no body count, so the withdrawal is slow and fierce!
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Feb 4, 2020 8:28:07 GMT
Ok so now we've had 2 large-scale playtests, I have a lot of notes to go through and edits/clarifications to make. This is my actual notes sheet from the last game (there was this sheet + another half page in total) I just make a note every time something doesn't make sense, or a rule is missing, or needs to be changed, or clarified: Generally you take a lot of notes in the early playtests, then as the testing goes on, you take less and less notes, until eventually you're playing games without make any changes to the rules (by that point you know the game's pretty much done). So I will be working through this list one by one, fleshing out or adding rules to accommodate or mitigate issues or situations we encountered. I also want to re-type or at least rearrange the infantry section so it flows better and gives the player more detail on exactly how combat functions. Because this is the heart of the game, it's well worth spending a lot of time on that section; making sure it reads well and creates a clear understanding of how the game flows. I will likely take some example photos too for Line of Sight examples and suchlike. Another thing I need to do is whip up some quick reference sheets - it feels like the kind of game where we're have an infantry quick reference page, and a helicopters quick reference page, and then a section for making requests (like artillery, medevac, air support, etc.). The basics of the game are working, but they still have some wrangling to keep them in line with the gameplay and fun I want out of the game, so still plenty of work ahead. We will have another playtest in just under 2 weeks, so everything should be clarified / filled out by then, and I'll be expecting to play a much more coherent and balanced game.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Feb 11, 2020 3:16:03 GMT
Making good progress on typing up all the edits - everything is pretty much done! We'll be looking at another playtest this Sunday. Made quite a few substantial edits to how things work, completely removing the Hidden Movement phase, and instead incorporating it into regular Activation. We found the VC had too much freedom to move around when they had an entire phase to move everything, and so instead we will force them to choose only a few units to activate and move. Posting some of the Line of Sight images I did recently too, just so this post has some image content! Just took photos of my miniatures, then added annotations with paint.net. I'm almost at the point where I would make some posts on various forums asking people if they would like to playtest these rules - I'm essentially almost at a "complete first draft" stage. Now that the game is running well after having a lot of things stripped out (such as civilians, booby traps, and the US hidden movement / deployment / recon squads) I can begin to slowly add them back into the game one by one. This staggered approach allows us to work through the basics of the rules - seeing what needs to be altered in order to function correctly, and then add in the more advanced rules, testing and modifying them as we go. If I started the game with Everything already in place, it would be much harder to learn and to work out what is causing the problems. Next up I need to type up the booby trap rules, and provide some image examples of how platoon firefights function. I also need to look at the civilian rules, and how they interact with hidden units at Terrain Points, without giving away the position of those units.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Feb 17, 2020 23:23:58 GMT
Another good playtest on sunday - I played the VC and my opponent took a US patrol on foot to check some villages. I placed a LMG ambush team near the village, and the ambush gameplay - suppressing and disordering the US platoon initially, but then recovering, working out where the fire was coming from, then calling in accurate mortar fire on the LMGs - worked perfectly. There are still some teething issues with when VC units can activate - I played them as if they needed some kind of message to activate, which would have relied on civilian lookouts, or orders from Company HQ. This resulted in most of the VC forces waiting around for the game, while the US conducted searches of a village, medevaced their wounded and generally had the run of the place. We decided the VC should be able to activate whenever they liked, whether this would just happen automatically (as we played last game), or if we should get civilians in there, it makes for a much more interesting game - as the VC can re-position and set up new ambushes, which puts time pressure and stress on the US player. While the game we played felt like an accurate "day in the life" of US forces, it didn't make for really engaging, exciting gameplay - and since this is a game, gameplay is the most important! The playtester really enjoyed the more narrative elements of the game, especially the reasons why US units didn't activate - such as being too lazy, expending ammo, or having accidental casualties. It caused us to come up with interesting stories, like the US platoon searching a village and shooting a bunch of dogs, or just wasting ammo while doing so. Or after a very small engagement (with the LMG ambush), one of the US soldiers shot himself in the foot to try to get out of duty. We also had a US Recon squad for the first time, which caused us to work out some rules for Recon units moving around and what happens if they come across enemy forces while moving. So this is the main thing I will be looking at over the next few weeks - how to integrate civilians with the Terrain Points without giving away the position of VC forces, and how to treat VC hidden movement - they should be able to move about, but it should take time to set up new ambushes.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Mar 12, 2020 0:49:08 GMT
Made some good progress on the rules, have typed up all the edits from last playtest, and hope to get in another playtest this sunday.
Also added some rules for deployment in smaller games (using half the table), and in larger games (allow the US to enter from multiple table edges and split their forces) at the request of my playtester, so we'll see how those work next time.
These rules are almost at the point where I can invite people to playtest them - usually I would make a post on The Wargames Website or certain facebook groups and get people to email me if they are interested in getting a copy of the rules and trying them out.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Apr 15, 2020 10:09:07 GMT
Been a while since I've had a chance to do much work on this, what with university and the current virus lockdown. Without playtesting to motivate me to get a new version of the rules ready every 2 weeks, I've been working on other projects instead (namely a piano concerto and some uni assignments). Over the last week I've been thinking about ways to potentially streamline the detection and spotting system, perhaps having 3 levels of "Situational Awareness" that will determine what can be detected and attacked. Now that the rules are functioning and we've done some tests, I think the detection and some of the tracking systems such as the detailed casualties tracking are a bit much, so I'll look at scaling them back - perhaps down to a simple tally sheet for casualties. Having some distance from the rule set allows me to think about my original intentions with the game, and if the current rules are serving that vision. I imagined a clear, clean game with plenty of friction, with the players attempting to struggle control back from chaos (coming from the rules themselves, and the opponent). I definitely think I have a way to go to achieve this goal, although many of the systems are working very nicely so far. Hope everyone reading stays safe in this time and is able to get some painting done, or even some solo gaming or getting some roll20 / VASSAL / tabletop simulator games in.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on May 27, 2020 1:54:32 GMT
While I Haven't actually typed anything to do with this game for a while, I have been thinking a lot about it - primarily about what my game does vs. what I want my game to do. It does represent a 'realistic / slice of life' simulation at the moment, but I personally wanted something more chaotic and abstracted - and faster playing, with less note-keeping and more maneuver and tactical decisions. In light of that, I've been thinking about simplifying the platoon roster, to cover just casualties and ammo, and to come up with a better stance / awareness system that could be represented with markers, and allow more flexibility to squads, rather than having to set your stance as an entire platoon, which is unrealistic has already been earmarked for altering. Our country is coming out of COVID-19 lockdown, so should be able to get our wargame club going again in a few weeks, which means playtesting can continue, and that will give some impetus for getting the next draft of rules ready, and whipping up some simplified platoon rosters. I've also began reading "Sons of Kolchak", which is a company commander's view of the war, and providing some good inspiration for the kind of maneuver warfare and chaos (as well as small details) I'd like to see on the tabletop. I've also been thinking about variable platoon leader quality, so you could have a green platoon leader who gets lost and accidentally shoots friendlies, while a veteran leader would be much more effective.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Jun 17, 2020 6:20:06 GMT
Finally been able to do some typing on this project, and crystallize my thoughts on this project over the last few months. It's always scary when you don't write something for many months (will I actually finish this game? am I needlessly re-thinking the mechanics, over and over in a never-ending loop?) but once you're back into it, that fear goes away. The main thing I wanted to change was the flow of the turns - players needed more control over being able to move troops longer distances and organize air support / tunnel movements, etc. without having to place markers and wait a number of turns. Reading "Sons of Kolchak" helped to give inspiration on how a Company Commander thinks and what he's able to do. Its not so much about the "day in the life" of an infantryman (which was the way I had been writing the game), but its more a selection of engagements, movements and reactions. So over the past 2 days I've been typing up how the turns should work: I knew I wanted 2 distinct phases - a tactical phase (with troop movements on the ground) and an operational phase (with air support called in, more 'strategic' long distance troop movements, and so forth). These 2 phases could be interchanged at a cost to the commander (so they could use an operational asset during a tactical phase, but it would cost them perhaps an extra operational asset discarded). I thought how to determine what kind of phase would take place - a simple D6 based system, or using playing cards drawn from a deck to determine turn order and which player could activate (like our Cornered Wolf game), but eventually settled on a simple D6 system at the start of each turn: - 1-4 the turn would be Tactical, 5-6 the turn would be Operational. I also needed a way to change the time of day without doing it completely randomly - I though about different types of randomness and decided I needed a track on which a marker would advance randomly, it would spend a at least a few turns in daytime, then at least a few turns in night time. The changes can be seen below: The Idea of Operational Assets came to me today - instead of players purchasing tunnels or waiting for their troops to call in air strikes, why not have a deck of cards, from which they can choose which asset to use in-game. This would play right into the hand of the Friction that I desire in the game play - you might really need an air strike, but all you have is mechanized infantry reinforcements, which will take time to get across the table. Or you might really need a tunnel system to get out, but its not there... I'm also looking at making the Platoon / Unit Roster much smaller and more compact (only showing the ammunition and casualties of a unit) so it can be placed next to the unit instead of being a large thing which tracks a bunch of stuff off the side of the table. This will help keep players immersed and show directly the condition of a platoon. I've been thinking a lot about how to get rid of a lot of the game markers - for example instead of using markers to show prone / running / etc. , using a reaction fire system, where depending on how far you move, the enemies fire has a different effect. For example if you crawl 2", the enemy will not be able to inflict casualties, but if you move at a full run, the enemy can inflict casualties, disorder, and suppression. I don't know if the reaction fire system will work, as its quite alien to the current system, but I will attempt to get rid of unnecessary markers. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I thought about having markers showing stance, so that individual squads could have their own stance rather than tracking it on the platoon roster. There would only need to be 3 states - prone, cautious-upright, and oblivious / running. This could be represented with a triangular piece of cardboard (like an A-frame house - although this would become a mess in larger games) or by only representing 2 of the 3 states with markers, so that the most common state would require no marker. I will need to think about this further... To do in the future: I need to design the Time Marker track, a circular track with 4 spaces, and I also need to design the new, more compact, Unit Roster. Our wargames club reopens this sunday, so I might be able to get a playtest in, but 2 of my playtesters can't make it, so I'll have to check with another.
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madman
Baptized by Fire
Posts: 8
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Post by madman on Jun 17, 2020 16:21:26 GMT
I agree with reducing the number of markers. One thing with your rules is so many conditions are desired by your rules that markers are almost required. I suggest one or two markers of all types max and slim the rules and conditions to match.
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