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Post by NKL AeroTom on Mar 21, 2018 0:49:38 GMT
Feel free to post any questions or suggestions for Missile Threat here.
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MattH
Baptized by Fire
Missile Threatener
Posts: 4
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Post by MattH on Aug 12, 2018 12:07:36 GMT
Some questions after playing half a dozen games or so:-
1. p.22 Flying into Missiles If a plane moves over a missile in the mandatory move and that missile is guided and tracking that plane, does it explode? 2. Bombing If a plane makes a bomb attack by moving over the target in the mandatory move phase, when is the attack resolved? Does it take an action? Can it attack more than one target?
When dropping UGBs on anything other than the mission target, is there any advantage to dropping more than one bomb? (Not counting heavy bombers here)
3. Strafing p.27 says strafing takes 1 action. The quicksheet says it takes 2. Which is correct? 4. Guidance radars Is it ok to activate a SAM or AAA, fire at a locked target, and then activate the radar, switch the lock, then activate another SAM/AAA to fire at the new target? I'm presuming the answer to this is no, but can't find anything in the rules that precludes it.
5. Helicopters Take one action to move in a straight line. Does this mean they can take 2 actions and move double their allowance in a straight line?
6. Flight plan Can a flight delay entry? I assume if so, it still RTBs on the original listed turn (due to loitering time).
7. Cannon attacks When making a cannon attack with a maneuver & attack, are 2 pilot checks required - one to make the advanced maneuver and one to fire the guns?
At what point in this process does the target have to declare he's making a defensive maneuver?
8. CSAR What's the procedure for rescue? I'm assuming:
Turn X Helo lands in action phase. Downed pilot boards in asset phase. Turn X+1 Flight Plan phase - Mark Helo to RTB on Turn X+2 Helo takes off in action phase. Turn X+2 Helo RTBs in Flight Plan phase.
9. Mission Target Is rolling for different mission targets just for flavour, or is there any difference between the target types?
Typos/Errata:
p.13 para 3 and para 4 "an defensive maneuver" both times should be "a defensive maneuver".
Ethiopia/Eritrea War: Ethiopian ground assets - Straight Flush radar is listed but no SA-6.
Suggestions:
An expanded, detailed Sequence of Play, carefully laying out exactly when things happen and in what order, would be most welcome. This would help with some of the little gotchas I encountered, and cut down on the rules lookups. For example, AAMs move in mandatory phase only, SAMs move in action and mandatory.
It would be nice if the quicksheet listed the Pilot Check modifiers for rear aspect and surprise next to the defensive maneuvers.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Aug 12, 2018 13:13:56 GMT
Hi Matt, some great questions / suggestion there  Yes - the only time a missile does not explode when an aircraft moves over it is during the pilot's actions - making a turn for example. The bombing would be resolved in the action phase and take the usual amount of actions for a bombing run (1) There is no advantage - usually aircraft will drop a single bomb or pair of bombs on smaller targets rather than dropping large amounts. Its only larger targets that are worth dropping multiple bombs on, Quick Reference sheet of the latest version (1.6) has this listed as 1 (which is correct) - this was only recently fixed though Great question - this needs some clarification in the rules. A SAM or AAA site needs guidance from its radar in order for the missiles to be guided. As soon as the radar locks on to a new target, the SAMs will not be able to track the old target, although they may be able to track the new target if it is within their tracking area. Yes it does - that's their top speed As the rules currently stand: no. The flight plan indicates when the aircraft will arrive on station, it would be very rare to be delayed specifically due to the current situation and I would guess that would only affect things like tankers or high value aircraft that need to avoid an area that has just recently been determined high threat (recently as in, between the aircraft's launch and arriving on station). Only 1 pilot check is required. If the check is failed, the aircraft still turns to the desired heading, but no attack can be made. Usually we make all the turns, adjust speed / altitude / etc, then roll the pilot check. After a successful pilot check for a maneuver and attack, the enemy aircraft can attempt to make a defensive maneuver. This is the moment just before damage is rolled. Yep that is spot on. 100% correct. Purely for flavour good spotting - overhang from when "defensive maneuvers" were called "Evasive maneuvers" Will fix! Great idea - I had hoped the example game videos on youtube would be good examples of blow-by-blow gameplay, but a written one in the book wouldn't hurt either. This is not quite correct - both AAMs and SAMs move in the initial action/asset phase they are fired in, but after that first move, they only move again in mandatory move phases. Those are listed, at the top in the pilot table Modifiers: Defensive Maneuvers |
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MattH
Baptized by Fire
Missile Threatener
Posts: 4
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Post by MattH on Aug 12, 2018 14:30:57 GMT
Thanks for the quick reply Tom
In which case you'll need to edit 1st sentence of p.22 'Flying into Missiles' which specifically mentions mandatory move. It's more of an issue for AAA. The way I ended up playing it was if you activated a AAA and fired at a locked target then the Fire Can that was tracking it counts as having activated also - because it was providing guidance. OK, but a Simple Cannon Attack also takes 2 actions and a pilot check, so this is basically exactly the same as a Maneuver & Attack, but without the maneuvering bit, right? EDIT: actually scrub this. I've just realised the difference is that there's no penalty for failing the pilot check in a Simple Cannon Attack as it's not an advanced maneuver.
The videos were really useful and definitely cleared a few things up. In fact they're what made me get into the game. I really wish more designers would do this. But when it comes to looking things up, an hour long video is not the best format!  (I think I must have watched the example game 4 times). Just to be clear though, I'm not talking about an example of play, I mean a turn sequence with each phase spelling out exactly what order things happen in. Kind of like a checklist to make sure you haven't forgotten anything. OK that makes more sense, but unless I'm being really dense that's not what it says on p.36 under SAM Behavior. It says twice that SAMs move each mandatory move and action phase. I did think it was a bit odd. Doh! Yes, couldn't see for looking. |
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Aug 13, 2018 7:57:02 GMT
Ah you're totally right - I will re-word that. The original wording would work in some cases, but I think its best to have the mandatory move cause a missile impact, especially if the missile is coming in head-on. OK, In the case of AAA I would allow the Fire Can / Guidance radars to change target and guide 2 different AAA batteries to 2 different targets (one before changing target, one after) - as most AAA guidance radars could keep track of multiple targets. I will clear this up a bit in the wording of the rules SAMs would still require guidance for any missiles in the air though. Great idea - I'll definitely do this You're right - it does imply that a SAM gets to move each action phase (it says it tracks target each action phase, which implies it would also move - otherwise it would not need to track...) I'll remove the "action phase" section of that sentence and clean it up a bit. In older versions of the rules missiles did move in both the action and mandatory move phases, so that looks like its the last vestige of those older rules Hope that helps clear a few things up - your feedback will certainly help clarify quite a few things in the rules! Cheers  |
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MattH
Baptized by Fire
Missile Threatener
Posts: 4
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Post by MattH on Aug 13, 2018 11:44:51 GMT
Thanks Tom, yes much clearer now. It was mostly pretty superficial stuff that was easy enough to house rule, but I really like to nail down rules to what the designer intended. The only thing that was really throwing me was the missile behaviour, which makes a lot more sense now.
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Post by Tinytwo on Sept 14, 2018 18:33:56 GMT
Hello!
I love your rule sets but have a quick question/comment about the Turn/Climb/Dive. I know that in your example video (which is an older version of the rules I think) I noticed that you had a Prowler take two actions (one for each basic movement to dive and turn 90ish degrees) instead of the one that it normally required (page 8 of v1.6). Though the more I think about it, I think I like that version a little better, and my reasoning for this is it makes the maneuver and attack advanced maneuver really useful and sometimes critical (beyond being used just to line up a cannon shot). In my last several play tests, I don't think I ever needed to use any of the advanced maneuvers as everything was handled with basic.
My question I have is what was the reasoning for this change?
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Sept 15, 2018 9:43:49 GMT
Hi Tinytwo - good spotting. Combining turns with shallow climbs / dives has been around since our WW2 air combat ruleset Lacquered Coffins, so it was always going to be part of Missile Threat. I must have just forgotten about it during the demo game You can try a few games without combining turns and shallow dives / climb, but you might find that you often don't have enough actions to do the things you want to do. Considering many aircraft in Missile Threat have limited range, each turn needs to be used to the full potential. Hope that helps! |
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Post by Tinytwo on Sept 15, 2018 18:49:46 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I do agree to some extent, and thank for you for sharing your thought process. A feel minor questions/observations i do have, or something that I have encountered a couple of times and would love to hear your thoughts on them. (I also picked I on Lacquered Coffins incase I ever got into WW2 air combat, primarily because of the missile threat rule set. You have made a convert of me). Part of the reason I asked about the turn and dive action, is I have encountered times where planes are able to do 270 degree turns only to easily line up an IR missile shoot and fire two sidewinders to blow me out of the sky (Damn F-14s  , have you ever encounters this? Is this what was intended? And apart from some flavor with the advanced maneuvers, they don’t seem to be that’s useful. Though i wonder if the pilot check couldn’t Be to use them as on action vice two depending on if you pass the pilot check or not? Maybe if they He Alison fail you can’t make a defensive action that turn either? Just thinking out loud. I know that I can house run or some stuff if need be, just hoping to get your thoughts. Again I adore these rules and they Contain damn near exactly what’s i am looking for in a game! It is the reason I s tarted picking up boat loads of mini airplanes! I can’t praise them enough, and have converted a few of myself gaming buddies to pick them up as well. |
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Post by Tinytwo on Sept 15, 2018 18:50:08 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I do agree to some extent, and thank for you for sharing your thought process. A feel minor questions/observations i do have, or something that I have encountered a couple of times and would love to hear your thoughts on them. (I also picked I on Lacquered Coffins incase I ever got into WW2 air combat, primarily because of the missile threat rule set. You have made a convert of me). Part of the reason I asked about the turn and dive action, is I have encountered times where planes are able to do 270 degree turns only to easily line up an IR missile shoot and fire two sidewinders to blow me out of the sky (Damn F-14s , have you ever encounters this? Is this what was intended? And apart from some flavor with the advanced maneuvers, they don’t seem to be that’s useful. Though i wonder if the pilot check couldn’t Be to use them as on action vice two depending on if you pass the pilot check or not? Maybe if they He Alison fail you can’t make a defensive action that turn either? Just thinking out loud. I know that I can house run or some stuff if need be, just hoping to get your thoughts. Again I adore these rules and they Contain damn near exactly what’s i am looking for in a game! It is the reason I s tarted picking up boat loads of mini airplanes! I can’t praise them enough, and have converted a few of myself gaming buddies to pick them up as well. |
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Sept 16, 2018 0:34:33 GMT
Yes especially Modern aircraft like the F-14s and F-16s are very maneuverable - it is quite common for them to be able to swing around more than 180 degrees and get missiles off - it makes dealing with them quite dangerous! Most good fighter aircraft post 1980 are capable of this though, so it tends to even out. This does mean the advanced maneuvers aren't really needed for modern aircraft, which seems to make sense - these are maneuvers that originated in WW1 and WW2 when aircraft just didn't have the power to quickly turn on the spot and attack. Those older pilots cared much more about E fighting, while a modern pilot can kind of just force his a jet around very quickly and attack in any direction. From the battle reports of pilots in air-to-air combat post 1980, I don't think I've ever read of one doing a scissors or low yo-yo The advanced maneuvers would probably be of more use to 1960s and 1970s era aircraft, where their turn rating is much lower (say 45 degrees) and they aren't as powerful. Aircraft like the MiG-21 will likely need to make use of advanced maneuvers when fighting aircraft like the F-4. Things like the Barrel Roll attack can also be important for positioning - sometimes a turn just doesn't put you in the right position to attack (too close for missiles for example). Glad to hear you're enjoying the game though, I'll keep clarifying things and hopefully add some more example images in the next edit. |
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Post by Thomas Ballou on Apr 4, 2019 0:16:10 GMT
Are there any scenario examples? I would like to see a scenario set up.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Apr 4, 2019 2:17:41 GMT
Hi Thomas, There is an example video showing the Strike mission:
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Post by youroker on Apr 25, 2019 14:19:08 GMT
Good day. Thank you very much for the great game. But there are a few questions on the aircraft table. No characteristics of missiles R-27 and RVV-MD. It is also strange that the Su-47 is losing the Su-27 by its characteristics. Thanks again for the game.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Apr 26, 2019 1:36:18 GMT
Hi youroker, the R-27T and R-27R are both in the "Complete aircraft and ordnance list" - Russian / Soviet Ordnance - 1980s (page 31). The RVV-MD is a variant of the R-73, which is covered on page 33. The SU-47 is a prototype, and did not become as successful as the Su-27, so it makes sense that the Su-27 is a bit better (faster, longer range, more hardpoints), but the Su-47 does have slightly better ECM protection, as well as being able to mount Anti-Radiation Missiles. Hope that helps! glad you're enjoying the game |
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Post by youroker on Apr 26, 2019 8:12:24 GMT
Hmm. In the version I bought the list in the section "Russian / Soviet Ordnance - 1980s" looks like this: No R-27.
Thank! I thought about it, but decided to clarify.
Thank! From this follows another question. I wanted to write homemade characteristics for some prototypes for playing in the local community. Can I post them on the forum?
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Post by NKL AeroTom on Apr 26, 2019 20:22:41 GMT
ah, you are right youroker - I must not have updated the Complete aircraft and Ordnance PDF since I added the R-27s (they were missing, but the stats are in the main book). I will update the PDF now, you can download the latest version from Wargame Vault (for free) You are welcome to post any homemade characteristics / stats for aircraft |
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Post by youroker on Apr 26, 2019 20:35:01 GMT
ah, you are right youroker - I must not have updated the Complete aircraft and Ordnance PDF since I added the R-27s (they were missing, but the stats are in the main book). I will update the PDF now, you can download the latest version from Wargame Vault (for free) You are welcome to post any homemade characteristics / stats for aircraft Thank you! |
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Post by youroker on May 2, 2019 21:51:59 GMT
There was a question / suggestion during today's game. Some aircraft actually have outboard fuel tanks, which are located on a hard point/pylon (F-16 for example and other many USA plane). Maybe it would be good idea typing them in the Ordnance list. The player will be able to sacrifice part of the weapons in favor of longer range.
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Post by NKL AeroTom on May 4, 2019 10:51:59 GMT
Hi youroker, we usually assume the center hardpoint is taken up by a Drop Tank on all aircraft, but you're right - we should include the option to take more drop tanks.
I would probably say that you can take 2 Drop Tanks (taking up 1 hardpoint each), at a cost of 10 points in total, which will extend the aircraft's range by 2. You can only ever take 2 maximum.
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(I think I must have watched the example game 4 times). Just to be clear though, I'm not talking about an example of play, I mean a turn sequence with each phase spelling out exactly what order things happen in. Kind of like a checklist to make sure you haven't forgotten anything.
, have you ever encounters this? Is this what was intended?
